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By: sooz
Date: 3/5/01 12:57:26 PM
# Replies: 33
I'm too lazy to search the Nunnery archives and find the previous posts regarding this. But... there was a time when we were discussing media coverage for school shootings and the like. I contended that the press shouldn't cover them at all, thus denying the shooter what he/she craved - noteriety. (Hell, I'm probalby all wet on this one, but it was a thought.)
Fang thought that the press should cover the stories, and calling the shooters exactly what they were - cowardly idiots and the like. I liked his idea a lot.
So today, north of San Diego, a 9th grader did a shoot-'em-up at school. At the moment, two students are dead from his spree.
Snipped from www.cnn.com: President Bush called the shooting "a disgraceful act of cowardice," adding, "When America teaches our children right from wrong and teaches values that respect life in our country, we'll be better off."
But, he said, "First things are first. And our prayers go out to the families that lost a child today."
Yay! He called him what he is, Fang... a disgraceful coward!
Respectfully yours,
Susan
Response #1
By: sooz
Date: 3/5/01 1:00:39 PM
Erm, I meant to post this in "Public Occurrances Both Foreign and Domestic." I'm sure I deserve a spanking.
Response #2
By: Gowan McGland
Date: 3/5/01 8:29:37 PM
Yes, but you'd like that.
At least he had the sense to take his NRA gimme cap off before the press conference.
Response #3
By: sooz
Date: 3/5/01 9:30:13 PM
Naw, it was Jesse Ventura who thought that, if the students at Columbine had all been ARMED as God had INTENDED, none of this woulda happened.
Those wacky Minnesotans.
Response #4
By: Da Sissop
Date: 3/6/01 4:55:58 AM
"Disgraceful act of cowardice" is a good start, but we as a nation can do better... we MUST do better....
 |
| Scrawny Pussyboy Charles Andrew Williams |
Response #5
By: Roxanne
Date: 3/8/01 9:38:39 AM
As I understand it, being called names like "scrawny pussyboy" and "disgraceful coward" is what drove the young man to shoot his classmates.
There are many lessons to be learned when someone snaps and reacts violently. One lesson should be to kids that it's not a good idea to pick on other kids or taunt them, tease them, and beat them up.
When I was a kid, I was the victim of incredibly brutal and hateful torture by my classmates. I can completely empathize with the rage and anger this child must have felt being so defenseless to repeated abuse by his peers.
I think social abuse is very similar to domestic abuse. Our society does not condone domestic abuse, so why do we allow our children to suffer verbal, mental, and physical abuse from their classmates?
Response #6
By: Da Sissop
Date: 3/8/01 12:17:53 PM
Roxy sez:
As I understand it, being called names like "scrawny pussyboy" and "disgraceful coward" is what drove the young man to shoot his classmates.
Response #7
By: sooz
Date: 3/8/01 12:44:09 PM
Because never, in the history of the world, have we been able to eliminate social abuse.
The only person reponsible for the shooting is the kid that did the shooting.
If I ever go on a tear and do something nutty, please blame me. Do not blame:
1. My mom, who may or may not have hugged me enough during childhood.
2. My employees, who routinely drive me nuts.
3. The government, for reasons too numerous to mention here.
4. Homer, for giving me someone fun to argue with.
5. The Baptist high school I attended.
6. Cosmopolitan magazine for sending the message that only thin women succeed.
Yes indeed, I'll be the one to blame. Life has ups and downs. We can't prevent that. We can only change how we react to it. The fella in CA chose to react violently, and that's his fault.
Response #8
By: Homer The Brave
Date: 3/8/01 1:53:29 PM
Fang, if the terms "scrawny pussyboy" and "disgraceful coward" didn't apply to the kid beforehand, and were merely throwaway words which the other kids used to taunt him, what makes you think those words have any more meaning now that you're the one using them?
I think 'frustrated, alienated teen with nowhere to go' is much more accurate, doesn't even give the illusion of perpetuating the bullying which the kid received, and actually gives a constructive suggestion about what to do to prevent the next kid from shooting his classmates.
Basically, adults don't give a shit until after the fact, and then all they do is trot the tragedy out as an example of their pet political cause.
Response #9
By: sooz
Date: 3/8/01 3:29:30 PM
Homer says: "Basically, adults don't give a shit until after the fact, and then all they do is trot the tragedy out as an example of their pet political cause."
Homer, that's a HUGE generalization, and makes about as much sense as "all blondes are dumb." I'm an adult with a teenage son, and I care deeply, before, during and after the fact. You're a single, childless adult, and you care. It's got nothing to do with politics. It's got to do with PEOPLE. Sometimes, they just care about each other.
Really.
Response #10
By: Da Sissop
Date: 3/8/01 3:34:38 PM
Well my approach is a two-pronged approach. "Frustrated alienated teen" maybe gives a clue to the sensible adults among us as to how to prevent the next tragedy, but I think the next frustrated alienated TEEN who hears it is simply going to say "hey, that's ME TOO, and gee willickers, that even sounds kinda sympathetic to the cause... maybe *I* should shoot up *my* school too."
So, the continued verbal abuse is really just a stopgap measure to try to make the NEXT COPYCAT, who is probably not thinking very rationally right now, mind you, stop and say "wait a minute, this shooting rampage idea doesn't really look like it's going to get me what I want after all."
Now, the BIGGER problem is that school is fucked. I know it was fucked when I went to school, and when I was the scrawny pussyboy that was getting beaten up and taunted, and I can only imagine it's gotten worse since then. It's fucked because socially it's nothing at all like the Real World. And when something boils over into a tragedy like a shooting, the response isn't to try and understand or reshape that alien society, rather, the response is usually to simply pull MY KID out and put him in a "better" school.
So, prong number two is to try to intervene and reshape that alien society into something resembling the Real World. Open up the lines of communication. Let kids vent without fear of reprisals. Let sensible adults act as moderators. Ted Koppel doesn't have a day job, he'd be perfect for this. And every now and then, let one of US go into the schools and address the kids and tell them that their cliques and their prejudices are so completely counter to what they'll find when they get out of school, that the tough jock bullies are actually viewed as "assholes" by adult society, and that, in most cases, the geeks shall inherit the earth.
Thank you, and God bless America.
Response #11
By: Homer The Brave
Date: 3/8/01 5:21:49 PM
Yeah, but what I'm saying is that if you're not rational, it doesn't matter if people are calling you a pussy or a disaffected youth. I mean, if you say that this latest kid to cut loose and shoot his classmates was a wimpy pussy coward, then all that means is that you side with the bullies, according to him.
Ok. I'm done being Mr. Takes Exception.
I need to get laid.
Response #12
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/8/01 9:03:09 PM
Rox:
"As I understand it, being called names like "scrawny pussyboy" and "disgraceful coward" is what drove the young man to shoot his classmates."
You know, I can remember a time when the worst thing that happened when a name was called was that someone ended up with a fat lip or a black eye maybe. In comparison, I think those were MUCH better.
Hmmm, and somehow all this "political correctness" where everbody gets bent out of shape over being called "pet" names, like "hun", "buddy" or "dude" and want to sue someone is supposed to make our society a better place. Is it any wonder when kids see adults wanting to wage law suits against such rediculous things that they ALSO go to extremes in their reactions? Just too bad that those extreme reactions in a adolecent mind without the tempering of experience leads to such results. Put you heart on our sleeve a little more. Maybe people will stop being so overly sensitive when these kids nuke an entire small town. Maybe then the larger adult populous will save getting bent out of shape for something a tad more important than a moniker.
For cryin' out loud people, it's calling someone a name! The name that someone calls you, or for that matter, what anybody says about you, has no power than what YOU give it! Someone calls you a name, says something about, it has no more power than what YOU give it by the way YOU react. If someone calls you a name, the only way it becomes true, is if you live up to it.
Toughen up you scrawny pussyboys/girls. Take your heart OFF your sleeve and put it BACK in your chest where it belongs.
(If anyone believes those are ACTUALLY the names they called him, I have a bridge I want to sell them)
Response #13
By: Da Sissop
Date: 3/9/01 5:30:32 AM
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me." I remember that one. It's good in theory, and maybe even helped a few people deal with some of the taunts, but from my recollection, disrespect DOES hurt. Particularly when you're a member of that aforementioned alternate bizzaro lord-of-the-flies school-aged society where nothing is more important than acceptance from your peers.
Response #14
By: sooz
Date: 3/9/01 7:36:05 AM
OOO OOO! Spas sez: "Hmmm, and somehow all this "political correctness" where everbody gets bent out of shape over being called "pet" names, like "hun", "buddy" or "dude" and want to sue someone is supposed to make our society a better place."
Yesterday, we got a big, important-looking letter from Jimmy's school saying that they had "counseled" him about accusations levied against him by some girls regarding "sexual harassment." This letter neglected to say:
1. Why we hadn't been called.
2. What the accusations were.
3. Who made the accusations.
4. Whether the accusations had been substantiated.
After a meeting on the sidewalk with the Asst. Principal this morning, it turns out that the problem was that Jimmy had called some girls "Babe," and they took offense to it. It was not "Woo-wee, you're a hot BABE!" It was "Hey babe, what's up?"
The letter stated that if this happens again, there'll be a "hearing" about whether or not Jimmy should attend the Alternative Learning Center... this is where the kids go after they try to bring weapons to school, or drugs, or attack a teacher... well, you get the idea.
This is the same school that suspended him for 1 class period for saying "Oh, crap, I forgot my pen!"
Whenever I drop Jimmy off at school (or to any school function), girls run up to him, gather around, put their hands all over him and hug him endlessly. A girl flashed her breasts at him on Fat Tuesday. One girl, daily, pats his crotch if he walks by her. He HATES that. "My package," he explains, "Is sensitive. You wouldn't understand, mom, but dad knows." This is all ignored by the school. But if a BOY does something to a GIRL, hooeeeee, it's different!
Please, someone wake me when Junior High is over. It's hell. 2 more months.
Response #15
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/12/01 8:51:34 AM
Da Sissop:
"Particularly when you're a member of that aforementioned alternate bizzaro lord-of-the-flies school-aged society where nothing is more important than acceptance from your peers."
Agreed, but getting mad about it is NOT going to get you that acceptance. You can't MAKE people accept you, period. When you react negatively to this types of situations, all you do is give them more fuel for fire. When you are talking kids in school, they are always going to tease and taunt each other. I don't care what kind of penalties you put on them, it's still going to happen. As a matter of fact, the more sever penalty you put on a the kids doing the taunting, the more escalated the agression and retibution will be next time around, then the one's getting taunting get so afraid that instead of things just culminting in a school yard fight, it ends up in a blood bath in the halls via a AK-47. Somethings are natural, and should just be left alone.
What the real issue is how the kids being made fun of are dealing with this situation. Even the most picked on kid in school has some or at least ONE friend. In life, you are not going to be able to win EVERYONE over, nor are you going to be able to win some of the people that you may really want to win over.
Sooz:
"Yesterday, we got a big, important-looking letter from Jimmy's school saying that they had "counseled" him about accusations levied against him by some girls regarding "sexual harassment. (snip)It was "Hey babe, what's up?""
Yep, sad state of affairs indeed. See, in that statement, the word "babe" could have been interchanged with dude, guy, girl, hun, etc. What the hell is sexually hassessing about that? It's rediculous.
I mean come on, when I was a kid, I got made fun of quite a bit. (If you were to ever see picture of me, you would know why. he-he) Yes, it hurt at the time, quite a lot at some times. Then again, when I was REALLY little, not getting my favorite toy hurt quite a bit too. Fortunately, I grew out of that.
I guess that makes me a bad person by today's standrad though. I mean, seeings since I didn't kill anyone in the process, or get a book and movie deal out of it.
Response #16
By: sooz
Date: 3/12/01 12:20:00 PM
I don't think that saying "When I was a kid, it was THIS way... yes, it sucked, but since I had to go through it, everyone should" is a good basis for argument.
Not that I have any answers or anything... I just feel like throwing problems out.
Response #17
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/12/01 11:43:19 PM
Sooz:
"I don't think that saying "When I was a kid, it was THIS way... yes, it sucked, but since I had to go through it, everyone should" is a good basis for argument."
Maybe not in every case, but you know what they say "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
Like I said in a previous post, at least kids weren't killing each other then. A little humilation, you can live with. A .38 slug in your head, you can't.
To paraphrase Dubya's dad:
"Humiliation...bad! Death...REAL bad!!!"
Response #18
By: sooz
Date: 3/13/01 7:52:06 AM
Oh, geez, it was ABSOLUTELY broke when we were kids!
Response #19
By: Roxanne
Date: 3/13/01 1:38:04 PM
When a child contemplates killing him/herself or killing other people, then obviously things really suck for that child.
All I'm saying is that when a child gets to that point, he is no longer being rational and is not going to care what is right or wrong; he is only going to want the pain to stop at any cost.
You can't save every last child from the horrors of adolescence; but it would be nice to help children before they get that depressed or hopeless.
Response #20
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/13/01 7:42:45 PM
Rox:
"All I'm saying is that when a child gets to that point, he is no longer being rational and is not going to care what is right or wrong; he is only going to want the pain to stop at any cost.
You can't save every last child from the horrors of adolescence; but it would be nice to help children before they get that depressed or hopeless"
It's like this, if you have a child that has been held for 14 years, and never allowed to even TRY and walk, you expect to one day 14 & 1/2 years later that the child is going to be able to stand up and start walking on his own. it's not going to happen. When you have a child that has been emotionally deprived by, albeit well intentioned parents, the opportunity to experience humlitaion as a child, he will NOT know how to deal with it as an adolecent. Parents don't want to see their children hurt, in ANYWAY, shape or form. The real and soemtiems sad truth about it is, (just like with learning how to walk) you don;t leanr how to handle emtional distress if you've been sheltered from it through your fomrative years. Sure you should want the best for your kids...always. But you should also realize as a parent, that you cannot fix the world. Trying to do so, is setting yourself up to fail miserably. You should also realize that there are SOMETHINGS that your children NEED to experience, even though it means that at some instances, they will be painful experiences.
Response #21
By: The Professor
Date: 3/13/01 8:50:39 PM
I'm not going to even suggest I have any idea why this is happening more and more today (not the guns fault, not the parents fault) but the shocking thing is that people are no longer shocked when they hear about things like this.
Living in Houston, I'm sure we have over 500 murders a year - hear about one every night on the news. Yet it seems more of a statistic than the fact that 500 families were devasted, 500 people had their life cut short.
Response #22
By: Homer The Brave
Date: 3/14/01 12:34:18 AM
People go into shock when something too upsetting happens. If it happens over and over, they'll learn to ignore it because its implications are too shocking. Which is bad for two reasons: One, you lose your soul when you learn to expect school shootings. Two, it's expected, and if we expect things to happen, the're more likely to happen.
Response #23
By: sooz
Date: 3/14/01 6:53:23 AM
Spas, are you saying that emotionally abusing children helps them grow emotionally? Bullshit.
As Fang said way back yonder, elementary/junior/high school doesn't reflect real life. Never in my adult life have people treated me the way I saw folks treated in school. So how does encouraging bullying in school help a person develop emotionally?
It doesn't help the bully or the bullied. Neither situation translates to adult life successfully.
Response #24
By: Roxanne
Date: 3/14/01 1:37:14 PM
It's just exercising some damn human compassion. No, you can't protect all children from all the world's horrors all of their lives. But a child who is thinking about killing people needs help.
Kids should be warned not to abuse other kids because it is a) not nice and b) might just get your butt killed if you pick on the wrong kid.
Kids should also be warned not to kill people because a) it's not nice and b) it causes more problems than it solves.
sooz: You are right. School life is nothing like real-life; except for prison-life. School is very much like prison; no one can escape and in such environs, nasty power trips and animal survival tactics kick in. Unfortunately, kids can't comprehend that there is a life after school; hell, it's a wonder anyone ever survives adolescence anyway. All those hormones going beserk...sheesh.
Response #25
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/15/01 8:29:14 PM
Sooz:
"As Fang said way back yonder, elementary/junior/high school doesn't reflect real life. Never in my adult life have people treated me the way I saw folks treated in school. So how does encouraging bullying in school help a person develop emotionally?"
Well no duh!
The english that you learned in high school is not the same english that you use in everyday life. The math you leanred in jr high is not the exact same math you use in everyday life. If it were, it wouldn't be so difficult to remmeber how to help your kid with algebra or geometry. The idea of school is to PREPARE you for these things. Mastering them and comprehensively learning the subject and it's principles is up to the individual in question.
I do not believe that anywhere along the way did I say bullying should ne encouraged. You don't have to. It's a natural phenomenon.
Do you honestly believe that natural childhood behavior is considered emotional abuse?
Rox:
"But a child who is thinking about killing people needs help."
Well, yes, and probably long before he got to that point. A child that gets to that point, does't get that type of thought process over night.
"Kids should be warned not to abuse other kids because it is a) not nice and b) might just get your butt killed if you pick on the wrong kid."
Do you remember AT ALL what it was like when you were a kid? Your parents, teachers and even peers tried to warn you, teach you and advise you. Sometimes you listened, sometimes you didn't. Something you just simply have to learn for yourself. Sometimes those lessons are painful ones. You can advise and tell people only so much. When you are growing up, you own the world, you have all the answers. Sometimes it's necessary to learn not to "pick on the bully" by getting your butt kicked.
"School is very much like prison;..."
Roxy, surely you are kidding.
The 2 don't even compare. What happened to you in school to make you feel that way?
Sooz:
"It doesn't help the bully or the bullied. Neither situation translates to adult life successfully."
Do you honestly mean to tell me Sooz or Rox, then in your childhood, you never derived any benefit or life lessons from a negative experience?
Response #26
By: sooz
Date: 3/16/01 7:36:14 AM
You want to ENCOURAGE negative experiences - that's the difference. Sure, they happen in the course of life; but why foster an environment full of ick?
Response #27
By: Xtopher
Date: 3/16/01 10:53:30 AM
Why, in the name of SCIENCE, of course!
As exhibited through Flaxon Alternative Interface Technologies:
http://www.sonic.net/~dfx/fait/
For example, an excerpt from the page on their revolutionary methods of overcoming the fear of flying:
FAIT-Style Exposure Therapy
"Since our Volunteers are picked more or less randomly and their immersion in virtual environments is more or less constant during their stay at our facility, anonymity and confidentiality are guaranteed. Upon arrival at the lab, the subject is suited up and subjected to three hours of rigorous psychological testing in our Leviatron system, which pinpoints fears, phobias, anxieties and aggressive tendencies within a +-5% accuracy range. Upon completion of Leviatron analysis, our top-level therapists determine necessary areas of psychological focus for each subject (based on Leviatron output data), and prescribe an appropriate virtual therapy regimen. Patients are kept isolated to guarantee their confidentiality, and after showering and a routine defumigation, proceed directly to their treatment.
In Fear-of-Flying therapy, the patient is strapped into a typical airline seat (augmented with hydraulics and vibration transducers to simulate realistic flight sensations) and fitted with a head-mounted display with omni-directional headphones. The resulting combination of interfaces enables a convincing air-travel simulation.
Lumbar support is provided where none is indicated, and temperature and humidity deprivation levels are regulated to add realism to the in-flight experience. Dry-roasted peanuts are served with a minimal amount of corresponding beverage. The "Fasten Seat Belts" sign is flashed intermittently throughout the flight, and occasionally oxygen masks drop from overhead panels, with accompanying alarm klaxons sounding from the forward section. Autonomous stewardess agents are programmed with realistic behaviors, simulating a range from "sticky sweetness" to "total indifference". An "abject horror" behavior algorithm has been added for additional realism during "rocky-flight" simulations. The combination of the above simulation parameters slows subjective exposure time, resulting in real-time treatment sessions lasting only 2/3 of apparent elapsed time."
And it just gets better as you read on...
This is the proper use of an environment filled with ick!
Response #28
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/16/01 11:45:17 AM
Sooz:
"You want to ENCOURAGE negative experiences - that's the difference"
Once again, I do not believe that I EVER said they should be encouraged. I simply pointed out that they happen, they are natural, and that children should be taught HOW to deal with them.
Response #29
By: sooz
Date: 3/16/01 1:47:15 PM
Murder and mass mayhem, ethnic cleansing and slavery all happen to. Just DEAL with it, right?
Response #30
By: Capt. Spastic
Date: 3/18/01 10:34:12 AM
Sooz:
"Murder and mass mayhem, ethnic cleansing and slavery all happen to. Just DEAL with it, right?"
Wow!
You are taking some quantum leaps in logic there!
Response #31
By: sooz
Date: 3/18/01 3:33:15 PM
Nah... the concept is the same. You really can't tell a child that getting beaten up/bullied at school is a minor thing in life -- it's not. It matters. I refuse to just shrug it off to "Life's rough; deal with it."
Response #32
By: Xtopher
Date: 3/19/01 5:37:18 AM
Personally, I took the attitude of
"Life is rough; deal with it by making friends with your computer, reading voraciously, and plotting your elaborate, poetic, non-violent revenge which you will implement when you are filthy rich and your agressors are languishing in their stagnant and depressing lives. Even if at that point revenge will be largely superflous, there's a principle at stake here..."
Response #33
By: The Sorcerer
Date: 3/19/01 6:18:42 PM
"Success is the best revenge."
- Someone
Sorc'(Rev)